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Ban Odin Heavy Defense ?

May. 28, 2016  1:49 AM
 
I thought I should share my ideas on this. I will say that I am no expert at Burst: I am only commenting based on what I have seen in tournament results, combo testing, and videos/live battles.

I think the 2 points for KO rule is fine, but we should definitely keep Burst at 1 point. I remember when Burst first came out that @[Kei] said something like Burst were happening too often. I think the preliminary testing came out to 57% or something like that. Plus, there is the point someone made that it is more likely for Burst to happen than KO's between any two types.
One thing to watch out for, though, as new rules are tested, before they are implemented, is that this will probably lead to an immediate increase in the use of Attack types. But it may not necessarily mean that it will be too much more useful, but that there is just more Attack types used.

I mean, it's just my thought, but I thought I'd post it. Like I said, I'm no expert, so take it as you wish, I guess.
Jun. 19, 2016  9:19 AM
 
Anyone's Up for banning Revolve?

Well i have no experince with it but from what i seen and heard it's extremely powerful

also most of people are using Revolve only at events
Jun. 19, 2016  9:51 AM
 
(Jun. 19, 2016  9:19 AM)FIREFIRE CPB Wrote: Anyone's Up for banning Revolve?

Well i have no experince with it but from what i seen and heard it's extremely powerful

also most of people are using Revolve only at events

Do you have Revolve?

It's very powerful but I don't think it necessitates a ban at this point. If anything, we should be looking at whether we can unban Odin now.
Jun. 20, 2016  1:17 AM
 
(Jun. 19, 2016  9:51 AM)Bey Brad Wrote:
(Jun. 19, 2016  9:19 AM)FIREFIRE CPB Wrote: Anyone's Up for banning Revolve?

Well i have no experince with it but from what i seen and heard it's extremely powerful

also most of people are using Revolve only at events

Do you have Revolve?

It's very powerful but I don't think it necessitates a ban at this point. If anything, we should be looking at whether we can unban Odin now.

I don't think Odin should be unbanned just yet. Aside from like 3 tests no one has really tested Odin on Revolve, and like Ultra said a while back somewhere, I think it's only a matter of time before people find the Disk (and possibly launch technique) that makes Odin Revolve even more powerful than Odin Heavy Defense, and we're more or less back where we were before Odin was originally banned. As far as I know no one has tested Odin ____ Orbit either, and that could prove to be even more OP than the potential Revolve variant especially with how prominent Orbit is nowadays.

Furthermore Deathscyther Heavy Defense has shown on multiple recent occasions that it is still capable of competing with Revolve combos, so I would imagine Odin Heavy/Gravity Defense should be able to do the same. In my experience DHD will OS OHD most of the time, but keep in mind that Odin is also harder to Burst than Deathscyther, and can also Burst Deathscyther itself rather easily. Some people have Odins that outspin their Deathscythers as well, so not only would we be releasing arguably the best Stamina Layer back into the game, but also one that is significantly harder to Burst without having the Stamina tradeoff Neptune suffers (Has anyone ever compared Neptune and Odin for Burst Defense? I don't remember).
Jun. 20, 2016  1:20 AM
 
Well, that's why I say we should be looking at it; I'm not advocating for an unbanning at this point, either! But it feels weird to have just one part banned from a standard format, so I'm anxious to resolve the situation haha
Jun. 20, 2016  2:32 AM
 
I would think unbanning could be ok with further testing. My Odin burst super easily, even against Deathscyther so I wouldn't know if it was that good anyway.
Jun. 20, 2016  2:44 AM
 
Odin Heavy Orbit vs Victory Valkyrie Gravity Xtreme
(Odin - weak launch + bank, Victory Valkyrie - brand new Xtreme launched moderately (if launched too hard it self bursts))
OHO 21 (4 BFs, 3 OFs, 14 SFs)
V2GX 29 (12 BFs, 17 OFs)
6 DBF

OHO 42% Win Rate

Odin Heavy Revolve vs Dark Deathscyther Gravity Orbit
(Dark Deathscyther - launched hard + banked, Odin - Balance enchanced + straight hard launch, Launch alternation every 10 rounds)
OHR 9 (1 BF, 8 SFs)
D2GO 11 (11 SFs)
3 DSF

OHR 45% Win Rate

After that I really don't think unbanning odin is an option, maybe later.
Jun. 20, 2016  3:29 PM
 
Why V2?
Jun. 20, 2016  4:18 PM
 
(Jun. 20, 2016  3:29 PM)Cye Kinomiya Wrote: Why V2?

It counters Odin, valkyrie bursts very easily against Odin which is why it was banned in the first place cuz there wasnt a good counter
Jun. 20, 2016  6:33 PM
 
I wouldn't say it counters Odin with results like that. You're right though. Maybe when a better attack layer comes out we can unban Odin.
Jun. 20, 2016  7:37 PM
 
I didn't mean it as a full out counter lol i just meant that it's the best attack layer to use against Odin (besides Obelisk Odin, but that's out of the question since it gets destroyed by everything else).
Jun. 20, 2016  7:41 PM
 
(Jun. 20, 2016  7:37 PM)1234beyblade Wrote: I didn't mean it as a full out counter lol i just meant that it's the best attack layer to use against Odin (besides Obelisk Odin, but that's out of the question since it gets destroyed by everything else).

What kind of difference are we talking here with Obelisk Odin vs Victory Valkyrie against Odin?
Jun. 20, 2016  8:50 PM
 
Odin Heavy Orbit vs Obelisk Odin Gravity Xtreme
(Same restrictions as V2GX vs OHO)
OHO 5 (1 BF 4 SF)
O2GX 15 (8 BF 5 OF 2 SF)

OHO 25% Win Rate

Quite a bit better than V2.
Jun. 21, 2016  12:09 AM
 
Odin Gravity Revolve vs. Wyvern Heavy Xtreme
Odin launched first, Wyvern launched with a bank.
OGR: 15 (12 OS, 3 KO)
WHX: 15 (2 Burst, 13 KO)
Ties: None
Odin Win %: 50.0%


Odin Gravity Revolve vs. Victory Valkyrie Heavy Xtreme
Odin launched first, V2 launched with a bank.
OGR: 11 (5 Burst, 6 OS)
V2HX: 19 (8 Burst, 11 KO)
Ties: 9 Double Burst
Odin Win %: 36.6%


Odin Gravity Revolve vs. Valkyrie Heavy Xtreme
Odin launched first, Valkyrie launched with a bank.
OGR: 11 (2 Burst, 7 OS, 2 KO)
VHX: 19 (13 Burst, 6 KO)
Ties: 6 Double Burst
Odin Win %: 36.6%


Benchmark:
Deathscyther Gravity Revolve vs. Victory Valkyrie Heavy Xtreme
Deathscyther launched first, V2 launched with a bank.
OGR: 6 (1 Burst, 5 OS)
V2HX: 13 (11 Burst, 2 KO)
Ties: 8 Double Burst
Odin Win %: 26.3%

My V2 finally broke in the 19th round of this benchmark, but I still gave a point to Deathscyther for the OS since it looked like it would've outspun V2 anyway.


So two things about these tests surprised me: Valkyrie matched V2 in round wins, and the number of times Odin bursted. I had never played Attack against an unmodified Odin that wasn't considerably more difficult to burst before today, so the fact that Odin is actually this easy to burst unmodified is shocking to me, especially with a used Valkyrie. Seriously, am I just doing really well with Attack types today, or am I using Odin wrong or something? lol
Jun. 21, 2016  12:25 AM
 
Did you bank and weak launch your odin? That's really the only thing that makes Odin so broken.
Jun. 21, 2016  12:33 AM
 
(Jun. 21, 2016  12:25 AM)1234beyblade Wrote: Did you bank and weak launch your odin? That's really the only thing that makes Odin so broken.

TBH, I'm not familiar with any of the particular launch techniques to using Odin, so I only launched it as strongly as I did its opponents for these tests. However, even if you completely disregard all the Burst Finishes from my set of tests, no amount of weak launching can save you from KOs, which again, there were plenty of. Heck, look at what Wyvern on Xtreme was able to do to Odin.
Jun. 21, 2016  12:44 AM
 
Can you do a benchmark with Odin Heavy Defense instead of Deathscyther and Revolve hah?
Jun. 21, 2016  1:53 AM
 
These were done in the B-08 with the old cover. Odin was always launched first. Both combos were Sliding Shot, and Odin was launched at a moderate RPM to minimize bursting.

Odin Gravity Revolve vs. Victory Valkyrie Knuckle Xtreme
OGR: 14 wins (2 KO, 7 BF, 5 OS)
V2KX: 16 wins (11 KO, 2 BF, 3 OS)
1 tie redone
OGR win rate: 46.6%

I fudged the first couple rounds trying to find the sweet spot for Odin where it was strong enough to OS but weak enough to avoid Bursting, so OGR's results could have been a bit better than what they were.

Odin Heavy Orbit vs. Victory Valkyrie Knuckle Xtreme
OHO: 19 wins (1 KO, 8 BF, 9 OS)
V2KX: 11 wins (10 KO, 1 BF)
5 ties redone
OHO win rate: 59.9%

Odin Heavy Defense vs. Victory Valkyrie Knuckle Xtreme
OHD: 15 wins (1 KO, 5 BF, 9 OS)
V2KX: 15 wins (13 KO, 2 BF)
3 ties redone
OHD win rate: 50%

I honestly think OHO is too OP to let Odin back in the game yet. I did a few rounds of OHO vs DSR and Odin was able to OS it pretty consistently and Bursted it a few times too. Orbit setups specifically may fare better against Attack when they are not weak launched as rather than sitting in the stadium they will be mobile and possibly more difficult to hit depending on how well both players predict.
Jun. 21, 2016  5:32 AM
 
(Jun. 21, 2016  12:33 AM)Angry Face Wrote:
(Jun. 21, 2016  12:25 AM)1234beyblade Wrote: Did you bank and weak launch your odin? That's really the only thing that makes Odin so broken.

TBH, I'm not familiar with any of the particular launch techniques to using Odin, so I only launched it as strongly as I did its opponents for these tests. However, even if you completely disregard all the Burst Finishes from my set of tests, no amount of weak launching can save you from KOs, which again, there were plenty of. Heck, look at what Wyvern on Xtreme was able to do to Odin.

Weak launching can totally save you from KOs. It drastically reduces the impact of hits.
Jun. 22, 2016  2:29 AM
 
Odin Heavy Defense vs. Wyvern Heavy Xtreme
Odin launched first with only a green light reading on the BeyLogger, Wyvern launched with a bank.
OHD: 18 (3 Burst, 15 OS)
WHX: 12 (3 Burst, 2 OS, 7 KO)
Ties: None
Odin Win %: 60.0%


Odin Heavy Defense vs. Valkyrie Heavy Xtreme
Odin launched first with only a green light reading on the BeyLogger, Valkyrie launched with a bank.
OGR: 13 (1 Burst, 4 OS, 8 KO)
VHX: 17 (10 Burst, 7 KO)
Ties: 2 Double Burst
Odin Win %: 43.3%


Odin Heavy Defense vs. Deathscyther Gravity Revolve
Alternated launches with no weak launches.
OHD: 6 (2 Burst, 2 OS, 2 KO)
DGR: 24 (3 Burst, 21 OS)
Ties: 1 Double KO
Odin Win %: 20.0%


I still don't get how weak launching is going to save you from being knocked out, let alone Bursts, in a game where everything spins the same direction. By my basic understanding of physics, the greater the whole Beyblade's angular velocity, the higher its angular momentum, and therefore the greater the torque it applies on another Beyblade during a collision. That's why a faster spinning top usually outspins a slower spinning top in the same direction.

When two Beyblades with near masses collide in a certain way, one with large blunt protrusions spinning and traveling around the BeyStadium at high velocity, such as VHX, and the other mostly being stationary with small blunt protrusions spinning at a lower velocity, such as OHD, the faster spinning and moving top should impose a greater amount of torque and force onto its opponent than the slower spinning stationary top would onto its opponent. We see the result of these interactions when a Layer's teeth skip (torque from opposing Layer, as well as its own opposing torque), and when whole Beyblades are knocked around or out of the BeyStadium (transfer of kinetic energy between tops' linear and angular velocities).

Regarding my tests, I believe Valkyrie was still able to Burst and KO Odin as many times as it did despite the weaker launch partly because its imposed torque on Odin was greater than Odin's imposed torque on Valkyrie in those instances, but also because Odin simply had less angular velocity. Newton's third law of motion dictates that Valkyrie must suffer nearly as much opposing torque during its collisions with Odin as Odin suffers from Valkyrie in the same impulses, however, the Valkyrie Layer counteracts this to some degree with its larger teeth, which increase the force necessary to rotate Valkyrie about its Driver counter-clockwise. I could explain other details further, but I'd really rather not, lol.

TL;DR - my experience and understanding of physics don't align with the purported success of weak launching against same spin opponents
Jun. 22, 2016  5:02 AM
 
(Jun. 22, 2016  2:29 AM)Angry Face Wrote: TL;DR - my experience and understanding of physics don't align with the purported success of weak launching against same spin opponents

Bruh weren't you the one who explained it best in my thread?

(Dec. 31, 2015  1:05 AM)Angry Face Wrote: Oh, well inertia increases with angular velocity, so the faster your top is spinning, the faster its Layer's teeth will skip the stud on the Driver when it takes a hard blow from the direction opposite of its spin. By the same concept, the slower your top's spinning, the less inertia the Disk and Driver have to skip the Layer's teeth. This is the reason why faster spinning Beyblade Burst tops often Burst when you catch them by the Layer than when they're spinning slower.

I was still a bit shaky on how it exactly worked until Cake pointed out something else to me too: technically the Disk/Driver and Layer rotate semi-independently of one another, so when the Layer gets hit, the Disk and Driver keep moving while the Layer suffers the most rotational recoil. Since a faster spinning Beyblade means a faster spinning Disk/Driver, the Layer suffers more rotational recoil when meeting a force spinning in the opposite direction than it would if the Disk/Driver were moving at a slower angular velocity (the Beyblade is moving more as "one unit" so to speak). Meanwhile the faster-spinning opponent technically suffers the same rotational recoil split among the two Beyblades upon collision, but as it is harder to change the faster-moving Disk's angular velocity due to inertia more of this recoil is distributed onto unclicking the Layer while the slower Beyblade just suffers a loss in overall spin.

What doesn't make sense to me however, is how weak launching could possibly defend against KOs in a game where everything is same-spin. The reason it works for opposite spin in other generations has a lot to do with the same way Burst/KO Defense works: you distribute more of the force of the opponent's hit towards pushing your Beyblade in the opposite angular direction (aka twisting the Layer) rather than being knocked back in any directional direction.

(Mar. 31, 2016  10:09 PM)Cake Wrote: Most designs providing good Stamina do so because of high moment of inertia (Phantom and Ring come to mind), which is good unless you're in Burst, where that inertia works against you during collisions, as the heavy Disk continues moving while the Layer receives force from the opponent, causing them to move relative to one another. In theory, the best Beyblades to resist Bursting would have low moment of inertia, but that will kill your Stamina and make you lose even more Stamina with each hit.

I read my paragraphs through again and they honestly just sound like a bunch of pseudo-sciency buzzwords lol. They were very stream-of-consciousness, and I still can't wrap my mind around the best way to explain how weak launching defends against Bursts. I hope at least one of the three explanations I posted makes sense to everyone.

This is one of those times I wish th!nk were back, he'd have all the ins and outs of Burst figured out in an instant.

EDIT: Ugh, I've posted so much in the past few days. AN must be giving me a swelled head Pinching_eyes_2
Jun. 22, 2016  5:36 AM
 
Ah, perhaps the issue is to try focusing on the tips instead of the top of the Beyblades? Lower spin velocity, as far as I know, also involves lower friction and grip with the ground. While having low spin velocity makes you an easy pray for destabilising and is definitely not as good as having a defensive rubber tip, with plastic tips perhaps you do need to launch weakly in order to avoid the tip gripping onto the stadium floor and going 'crazy' in its own sense. Remember how tires make a car move because of the very high friction?
Jun. 22, 2016  5:50 AM
 
(Jun. 22, 2016  5:02 AM)Wombat Wrote:
(Jun. 22, 2016  2:29 AM)Angry Face Wrote: TL;DR - my experience and understanding of physics don't align with the purported success of weak launching against same spin opponents

Bruh weren't you the one who explained it best in my thread?

Nah, that was an explanation for the correlation you observed between increasing Disk (Disc?) masses and increased Bursting.

Layer-on-Layer interactions have less to do with inertia, however, since the majority of the Beyblade's mass is located in the Disc, and more to do with collision physics of rotating bodies, since the Layer is the primary area of contact between Burst Beyblades where most energy transfer occurs.


(Jun. 22, 2016  5:36 AM)Kai-V Wrote: Ah, perhaps the issue is to try focusing on the tips instead of the top of the Beyblades? Lower spin velocity, as far as I know, also involves lower friction and grip with the ground. While having low spin velocity makes you an easy pray for destabilising and is definitely not as good as having a defensive rubber tip, with plastic tips perhaps you do need to launch weakly in order to avoid the tip gripping onto the stadium floor and going 'crazy' in its own sense. Remember how tires make a car move because of the very high friction?

But this goes into what I just said to Wombat; the Layer is where most contact is made between Beyblades. The Driver's tip shape and material influence mainly the movement of the whole top.

In the case of OGR/OHD vs VHX, by my tests, weak launching OHD didn't actually provide any statistically significant improvement in defensive performance over regularly launching OGR.
Jun. 22, 2016  2:28 PM
 
Yes, the contact is obviously on the Layers, but spinning tops are, down to earth, victims of gravity too, and this friction is non negligible hah.

I never actually witnessed that launching weakly helped defend against knockouts, but I think this is the only explanation that makes sense if this technique ends up getting proven.
Jun. 25, 2016  2:42 PM
 
Where did the notion come from that OHD was dominating in Japan? I just came from a G1 event where 6 out of the top 8 were still adamantly using DHD. The other two combos were DHR and D2HO. I think even the kid that used DHR switched to DHD when he played for third place.

I'm gonna check out another tournament tomorrow, and hopefully a third one on July 3rd.
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